Yeah, all the "serves him right" comments but still it is a terrible accident. Maybe the guy is stupid, maybe he was drunk, whatever. It seems to me he just didn't know what he was doing. He could use some friends like all us clever bastards to teach him the right way to do things. You know, "remind him of his failings in the most tender manner and aid his reformation" is part of my values. We are all in this thing together, uh?
I'm thinkin the poor bastard never thought twice about his choice of powder or the measurement. His mistake was perhaps realized just at the moment of the explosion that mangled his hand. He probably realized exactly what he did but, too late. Unfortunately for him, he stands as a poster child for those who would let nonchalance or indifference to reality, or rules, or dedication to detail and common sense, escape him while skipping merrily and ignorantly through this life. Thank God he didn’t hurt someone else, only himself and he'll survive. Those who seek out serious endeavors for their professional lives or recreation can pay a heavy price for their momentary stupidity or lack of awareness. Too often though, others pay the price too. He'd be hurting a lot more if his lack of attention to detail had caused someone else life or limb. Hopefully, this will be a painful and valuable lesson learned...jd
Hmmm - This has me thinking....I better have a discussion with hubby since he always says 'ladies first' when shooting a new gun or batch of reloaded bullets.
Before I brought my first front-stuffer (a rarity here in NZ, although getting more popular), I had read many a book on how to load them.I compared that with what the 'range experts'said, then went with what the folks at Lyman had to say!
FWIW, friend and I have experimented rather heavily with smokeless in BP arms. Never a Savage that actually has loading data for doing so, actually. It can be done if one is very careful about load development and start really low. The problem is, for the average person without access to strain gauges and other instrumentation and test barrels, the difference between a safe load and an unsafe load will become apparent in a rather painful fashion.
Mi amigo has a .50 caliber he built with a purpose built barrel that likes 45 caliber sabot loads and Varget and is ignited with small magnum rifle primers instead of perc caps. I've a .36 caliber that uses the same primer set-up and eats smokeless happily, but neither one of us volumetrically dumped equal amounts of smokeless as BP or equiv, volumetrically, as that would be insane. We also used test barrels and test chambers.
Smokeless can work in BP firearms but you have to do a LOT of homework to make it work safely and since you can buy things like American Pioneer Powder, where clean up is so easy (even if it isn't quite as accurate as good BP, IMHO) there isn't that much point in doing it.
All the black powder substitutes are smokeless type powders mixed with filler so you can volumetrically measure them the same (within a bit of error, as it's not exact) as real BP.
By the same token, if you use a faster burning BP in the same amount as a slower burning one, you can also grenade yourself.
Test chambers, pressure barrels, testing, and erring on the side of caution are all important.
Feller up by Dallas a couple years back liked to run his smokeless loads in a 1903 on the ragged edge and one day he blew the cocking piece into his forehead.
So it don't matter if it's BP or Smokeless, always start a lot lower than you think and work up, especially if you don't have test equipment or you'll end up dead or mangled. Friend of mine locally had his left hand fingers surgically re-attached due to a failed experiment with spitzers in a tube mag lever gun...
Thank you all. I'm sure learning a lot from these comments beyond "that was dumb, shouldn'ta done that". One big lesson is, don't deviate from what's supposed to be done. I've worked with C4, det cord, breaching and blowing stuff and yes, never never stray from what's supposed to be done and the way it is supposed to be done.
I'm a shooter and I reload. I estimate I've loaded 60-70 thousand rounds of 45acp, 357, 9mm, some 44 mag. I only had one KaBoom, with 45acp. I turned a S&W 1911 PD, scandium frame, into a hand-held claymore. Some frag in my face (shooting glasses thank God) and finger, mag bounced off my toe, gun gone like the landlord's smile.
Two lessons: I will never own an alloy pistol ever again; I will not double-charge a case.
I'm a careful guy (Barb says fussy-to-anal is more like it), clean and sober many years, I don't watch TV while at the Dillon 550, don't do it when I'm tired or pissed off or in a hurry, etc etc. But it can happen to any one of us that takes stuff that goes bang and puts it, moves it, makes it hot, messes with it in any way. Check, re-check, when in doubt I don't feel lucky, even with odds like 60,000 to 1.
If you want weird black powder alternate priming and propellant systems, feel free to email the BoomerLad. Friend of mine still has some of the Blank Locks he did a run of a couple years ago that replace drum type cap locks with a lock that takes nail gun blanks. With the #5 loads they'll shoot 50 caliber balls at around 900fps without any powder. After much hassling as to rulings, they are officially considered "alternate priming and theatrical blank firing devices". They do convert your BP arm into a Title I firearm when installed though, and all BATFE rules apply, same as when you put a cartridge conversion cylinder in a .44 or .45 revolver.
That's something a lot of people don't know and I figured I should point that out as people get in trouble over that. If you put a conversion cylinder in a cap and ball revolver, you have converted it into a Title I firearm and all rules and regs apply, it's no longer an antique BP firearm. It is now a NEWLY MANUFACTURED MODERN CARTRIDGE REVOLVER. There's nothing illegal about it. A person can manufacture Title I firearms for themselves without a 07 Manufacturer license BUT if you sell it to anybody, all BATFE rules and Regs as well as NFA and GCA apply.
Stay safe. Keep your fingers on your hands. And don't go to jail because you didn't know the law.
In response to the guy who has "experimented rather heavily with smokeless powder in BP weapons", ARE YOU NUTS? You NEVER NEVER EVER load a muzzleloader with ANY AMOUNT of smokeless powder, especially a traditional type. The barrel steels used with these weapons are not designed for it. Don't even hint to other shooters that it can be done if studied out and done in a scientific manner. We're already seeing enough idiots out there blowing their hands off. Geez, what a moron.
This is also in response to "tom"... You should not even suggest that people can use smokeless powder in a Blackpowder firearm! Blackpowder weapons should be loaded with BP or substitute BP ONLY!! It is grossly negligent of you to give such misinformation on a public forum, where someone might actually attempt the idiocy you are proclaiming. Please post the location of your shooting range, SO I CAN BE SURE I'LL NEVER GO THERE!! For God's sake man! Think of the people around you! Are there children there? Families?? SCHRAPNEL DOESN'T DISCRIMINATE!!
Another response to "Tom"... Are totally out of it? Are you totally nuts? Did your REALLY shoot smokless in a BP rifle? Only an insane person would even think of posting such a stupid suggestion.
Note to all that read this... DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT try what Tom posted. He is without any live brain cells.
Another note to Tom: I'm the one who said you have no active brain cells, just to seperate myself from the other posters telling you how stupid, nuts and crazy you are.
These anonymous posts are from three seperate people, not the same person making several posts. None of us belong to this forum and do not wish to. We belong to a muzzleloading forum and stumbled on your rediculous, insane post. We are all educated on black powder weapons. Most of us in our muzzleloading forum have active brain cells.
Too bad there seems to be no moderator in your forum. How sad!
I need to say it once more just incase someone decides to try your stupid endeavor.
I ask that no one emails you for further information other than to tell you how stupid you are.
Umm for all you people saying to never use smokeless powder in a muzzleleoader. You obviously do not realize that this man was using a savage muzzleloader that was designed to be used with smokeless powder. Obviously he overhcarged it, but this explosion did not happen because a dumbass used smokeless powder in a muzzleloader. It happened because he used too much powder, this exact same thing can happen while using blackpowder. So maybe you people should do some research before you say smokeless powder isnt safe in any muzzleloader.
Everyone here makes mistakes. Unfortunately when you make a mistake with a gun it can be deadly. Reading instructions, asking a buddy or visiting forums when your not sure can help avoid injuries like this. Takes a pair to post this but I'll bet it has gotten everyone's attention and hopefully others can take a lesson or at the least be reminded of the dangers from the accident. Been a while since the injury, hopefully a good recovery prevailed.
Instead of criticizing and calling him stupid may be, all should do our best to help inform other shooters by sending this message to all we know, It my save someone an incident. PS all beware of the henry 1860 44 40 lever action tubular mag, the fowler slipped lose while my pops was loading the mag the force of the fowler striking the bullets set the thee he had in the mag off mangling his hand. My pops is 73 and has been shooting since he was a child. He reloads black and smokeless powders shoots traditional muzzle loaders and by no means is stupid, so all please just pass safety advice around. Safety never minor, of monotonous keep passing the word.
Wow special forces and you are that stupid yeah you are special forces and i am Brad Pitts good looking brother.it is nice to know that down under has its share of generation x box retards I thought just USA had all the generation xbox retards a whole generation of assholes that will not grow up I just figured out why the war is still going strong there trying to wipe out as many of generation x box retards ad we can.
Wow special forces and you are that stupid yeah you are special forces and i am Brad Pitts good looking brother.it is nice to know that down under has its share of generation x box retards I thought just USA had all the generation xbox retards a whole generation of assholes that will not grow up I just figured out why the war is still going strong there trying to wipe out as many of generation x box retards ad we can.
this should tell you, never, ever, never, use smokeless modern powder in a BLACK POWDER ONLY rifle, or black powder equivalent, such as triple 7, or pryodex. smokeless powder has way too much pressure. and not seating your bullet all the way down can cause such a accident. but remember, if your not sure of anything, don't shoot, or at least ask somebody first.
Why on earth would you ever consider putting smokeless powder in a muzzle loader? KISS (keep it simple, stupid). Just because you CAN do something doesn't you should or that it's ever a good idea.
Why on earth would you ever consider putting smokeless powder in a muzzle loader? KISS (keep it simple, stupid). Just because you CAN do something doesn't you should or that it's ever a good idea.
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Most die hard avid fans of celebrities no doubt collect memorabilia from the various works that the Body Measurements Info has taken part in. This is very true when it comes to celebrity's who are involved in film or the music industry. Most avid collectors will generally focus their celebrity based collection on one or a handful of celebrities.
That left a mark!
ReplyDeleteSize 8 stupid in a size 7 cap...
ReplyDeleteUsing fairy dust in a front stuffer is just wrong!
ReplyDeleteIt's a good thing when people have to pay for their OWN mistakes. Natural selection at work.
ReplyDeleteYeah, all the "serves him right" comments but still it is a terrible accident. Maybe the guy is stupid, maybe he was drunk, whatever. It seems to me he just didn't know what he was doing. He could use some friends like all us clever bastards to teach him the right way to do things. You know, "remind him of his failings in the most tender manner and aid his reformation" is part of my values. We are all in this thing together, uh?
ReplyDeleteno sense being stupid unless you can prove it. thats gonna leave a mark
ReplyDeletethat really sucks.... But you learn more from mistakes then success I guess...
ReplyDeleteI bet he doesn't try this again.
ReplyDeleteI'm thinkin the poor bastard never thought twice about his choice of powder or the measurement. His mistake was perhaps realized just at the moment of the explosion that mangled his hand. He probably realized exactly what he did but, too late. Unfortunately for him, he stands as a poster child for those who would let nonchalance or indifference to reality, or rules, or dedication to detail and common sense, escape him while skipping merrily and ignorantly through this life. Thank God he didn’t hurt someone else, only himself and he'll survive.
ReplyDeleteThose who seek out serious endeavors for their professional lives or recreation can pay a heavy price for their momentary stupidity or lack of awareness. Too often though, others pay the price too. He'd be hurting a lot more if his lack of attention to detail had caused someone else life or limb. Hopefully, this will be a painful and valuable lesson learned...jd
Hmmm - This has me thinking....I better have a discussion with hubby since he always says 'ladies first' when shooting a new gun or batch of reloaded bullets.
ReplyDeleteBefore I brought my first front-stuffer (a rarity here in NZ, although getting more popular), I had read many a book on how to load them.I compared that with what the 'range experts'said, then went with what the folks at Lyman had to say!
ReplyDeleteAll me bits are still intact many years later!
FWIW, friend and I have experimented rather heavily with smokeless in BP arms. Never a Savage that actually has loading data for doing so, actually. It can be done if one is very careful about load development and start really low. The problem is, for the average person without access to strain gauges and other instrumentation and test barrels, the difference between a safe load and an unsafe load will become apparent in a rather painful fashion.
ReplyDeleteMi amigo has a .50 caliber he built with a purpose built barrel that likes 45 caliber sabot loads and Varget and is ignited with small magnum rifle primers instead of perc caps. I've a .36 caliber that uses the same primer set-up and eats smokeless happily, but neither one of us volumetrically dumped equal amounts of smokeless as BP or equiv, volumetrically, as that would be insane. We also used test barrels and test chambers.
Smokeless can work in BP firearms but you have to do a LOT of homework to make it work safely and since you can buy things like American Pioneer Powder, where clean up is so easy (even if it isn't quite as accurate as good BP, IMHO) there isn't that much point in doing it.
All the black powder substitutes are smokeless type powders mixed with filler so you can volumetrically measure them the same (within a bit of error, as it's not exact) as real BP.
By the same token, if you use a faster burning BP in the same amount as a slower burning one, you can also grenade yourself.
Test chambers, pressure barrels, testing, and erring on the side of caution are all important.
Feller up by Dallas a couple years back liked to run his smokeless loads in a 1903 on the ragged edge and one day he blew the cocking piece into his forehead.
So it don't matter if it's BP or Smokeless, always start a lot lower than you think and work up, especially if you don't have test equipment or you'll end up dead or mangled. Friend of mine locally had his left hand fingers surgically re-attached due to a failed experiment with spitzers in a tube mag lever gun...
Thank you all. I'm sure learning a lot from these comments beyond "that was dumb, shouldn'ta done that". One big lesson is, don't deviate from what's supposed to be done. I've worked with C4, det cord, breaching and blowing stuff and yes, never never stray from what's supposed to be done and the way it is supposed to be done.
ReplyDeleteI'm a shooter and I reload. I estimate I've loaded 60-70 thousand rounds of 45acp, 357, 9mm, some 44 mag. I only had one KaBoom, with 45acp. I turned a S&W 1911 PD, scandium frame, into a hand-held claymore. Some frag in my face (shooting glasses thank God) and finger, mag bounced off my toe, gun gone like the landlord's smile.
Two lessons:
I will never own an alloy pistol ever again;
I will not double-charge a case.
I'm a careful guy (Barb says fussy-to-anal is more like it), clean and sober many years, I don't watch TV while at the Dillon 550, don't do it when I'm tired or pissed off or in a hurry, etc etc. But it can happen to any one of us that takes stuff that goes bang and puts it, moves it, makes it hot, messes with it in any way. Check, re-check, when in doubt I don't feel lucky, even with odds like 60,000 to 1.
If you want weird black powder alternate priming and propellant systems, feel free to email the BoomerLad. Friend of mine still has some of the Blank Locks he did a run of a couple years ago that replace drum type cap locks with a lock that takes nail gun blanks. With the #5 loads they'll shoot 50 caliber balls at around 900fps without any powder. After much hassling as to rulings, they are officially considered "alternate priming and theatrical blank firing devices". They do convert your BP arm into a Title I firearm when installed though, and all BATFE rules apply, same as when you put a cartridge conversion cylinder in a .44 or .45 revolver.
ReplyDeleteThat's something a lot of people don't know and I figured I should point that out as people get in trouble over that. If you put a conversion cylinder in a cap and ball revolver, you have converted it into a Title I firearm and all rules and regs apply, it's no longer an antique BP firearm. It is now a NEWLY MANUFACTURED MODERN CARTRIDGE REVOLVER. There's nothing illegal about it. A person can manufacture Title I firearms for themselves without a 07 Manufacturer license BUT if you sell it to anybody, all BATFE rules and Regs as well as NFA and GCA apply.
Stay safe. Keep your fingers on your hands. And don't go to jail because you didn't know the law.
Happy Shooting.
Take a look at : http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert.html
ReplyDeleteMaybe there is more to this story....
In response to the guy who has "experimented rather heavily with smokeless powder in BP weapons", ARE YOU NUTS? You NEVER NEVER EVER load a muzzleloader with ANY AMOUNT of smokeless powder, especially a traditional type. The barrel steels used with these weapons are not designed for it. Don't even hint to other shooters that it can be done if studied out and done in a scientific manner. We're already seeing enough idiots out there blowing their hands off. Geez, what a moron.
ReplyDeleteThis is also in response to "tom"... You should not even suggest that people can use smokeless powder in a Blackpowder firearm! Blackpowder weapons should be loaded with BP or substitute BP ONLY!! It is grossly negligent of you to give such misinformation on a public forum, where someone might actually attempt the idiocy you are proclaiming. Please post the location of your shooting range, SO I CAN BE SURE I'LL NEVER GO THERE!! For God's sake man! Think of the people around you! Are there children there? Families?? SCHRAPNEL DOESN'T DISCRIMINATE!!
ReplyDeleteAnother response to "Tom"... Are totally out of it? Are you totally nuts? Did your REALLY shoot smokless in a BP rifle?
ReplyDeleteOnly an insane person would even think of posting such a stupid suggestion.
Note to all that read this... DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT try what Tom posted. He is without any live brain cells.
Another note to Tom: I'm the one who said you have no active brain cells, just to seperate myself from the other posters telling you how stupid, nuts and crazy you are.
ReplyDeleteThese anonymous posts are from three seperate people, not the same person making several posts. None of us belong to this forum and do not wish to. We belong to a muzzleloading forum and stumbled on your rediculous, insane post. We are all educated on black powder weapons. Most of us in our muzzleloading forum have active brain cells.
Too bad there seems to be no moderator in your forum. How sad!
I need to say it once more just incase someone decides to try your stupid endeavor.
I ask that no one emails you for further information other than to tell you how stupid you are.
Umm for all you people saying to never use smokeless powder in a muzzleleoader. You obviously do not realize that this man was using a savage muzzleloader that was designed to be used with smokeless powder. Obviously he overhcarged it, but this explosion did not happen because a dumbass used smokeless powder in a muzzleloader. It happened because he used too much powder, this exact same thing can happen while using blackpowder. So maybe you people should do some research before you say smokeless powder isnt safe in any muzzleloader.
ReplyDeleteNice pick up Kyle, amazing how so many people going on about detail miss detail.
ReplyDeleteWow. That is a shame the over-charging lesson was learned the hard way. This has been a while ago. How is the hand now?
ReplyDeleteEveryone here makes mistakes. Unfortunately when you make a mistake with a gun it can be deadly. Reading instructions, asking a buddy or visiting forums when your not sure can help avoid injuries like this. Takes a pair to post this but I'll bet it has gotten everyone's attention and hopefully others can take a lesson or at the least be reminded of the dangers from the accident. Been a while since the injury, hopefully a good recovery prevailed.
ReplyDeleteresearch, read, learn, ask, watch, double check. this is explosive stuff. or simple, do not reload. buy from reliable brand ammo.
ReplyDeleteInstead of criticizing and calling him stupid may be, all should do our best to help inform other shooters by sending this message to all we know, It my save someone an incident. PS all beware of the henry 1860 44 40 lever action tubular mag, the fowler slipped lose while my pops was loading the mag the force of the fowler striking the bullets set the thee he had in the mag off mangling his hand. My pops is 73 and has been shooting since he was a child. He reloads black and smokeless powders shoots traditional muzzle loaders and by no means is stupid, so all please just pass safety advice around. Safety never minor, of monotonous keep passing the word.
ReplyDeletewow, I don't think I ever want a muzzleloader or to take up hand loading either now. I hope the poor guy didn't end up losing the hand entirely.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWow special forces and you are that stupid yeah you are special forces and i am Brad Pitts good looking brother.it is nice to know that down under has its share of generation x box retards I thought just USA had all the generation xbox retards a whole generation of assholes that will not grow up I just figured out why the war is still going strong there trying to wipe out as many of generation x box retards ad we can.
ReplyDeleteWow special forces and you are that stupid yeah you are special forces and i am Brad Pitts good looking brother.it is nice to know that down under has its share of generation x box retards I thought just USA had all the generation xbox retards a whole generation of assholes that will not grow up I just figured out why the war is still going strong there trying to wipe out as many of generation x box retards ad we can.
ReplyDeletethis should tell you, never, ever, never, use smokeless modern powder in a BLACK POWDER ONLY rifle, or black powder equivalent, such as triple 7, or pryodex. smokeless powder has way too much pressure. and not seating your bullet all the way down can cause such a accident. but remember, if your not sure of anything, don't shoot, or at least ask somebody first.
ReplyDeleteWhy on earth would you ever consider putting smokeless powder in a muzzle loader? KISS (keep it simple, stupid). Just because you CAN do something doesn't you should or that it's ever a good idea.
ReplyDeleteWhy on earth would you ever consider putting smokeless powder in a muzzle loader? KISS (keep it simple, stupid). Just because you CAN do something doesn't you should or that it's ever a good idea.
ReplyDeleteSo sad to see the post, this is a great loss of life.
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